My response to Kristen's Blog; found here :
iThink
Many great things were founded on lesser things. Why would we assume religion should be any different? The Bible did "borrow" from many things, as does many of our school textbooks. Granted, we don't "worship" textbooks; but we do learn from them. Just like a textbook, the information can be wrong, or if read wrong, be misleading. How many time have you read something then taken an exam to realize you've understood it wrong?
While I appreciate you informing me of your opinion of where religion came from; with respect, you don't know either. Polytheism very well could have been born from the minds of humans that needed more control. OR Gods and Goddess' walked among us at one point in time. Many ancient Greek and Roman script relate this. I'm not completely sure about Egyptian; fear not, I will be steeped in ancient Egyptian knowledge after Friday. From what I understand the Egyptian philosophy predates Greek and Roman. Fact is not fact just because someone says it. That's irrevocably an opinion.
The statement I made "I can prove that I have faith, where is your proof that you shouldn't?"; I believe in God, I have faith that he exists because he lives inside me, I know he's there, but I can't prove that to anyone anymore than I can prove I'm capable of loving someone, or hating someone for that matter. My proof of faith is in what I tell you and in my actions of how I handle things. Call me blind, ignorant, uneducated, and any other thing you prefer but the old adage stands true, "sticks and stones may break my bones..." We'll all know the truth in the end of days anyhow. I'd rather be disappointed myself than see a friend in misery.
I have no problem with being broad minded enough for all theories to fit. Darwinism, Big-bang, Polytheism, whatever. I agree with you in the respect that one day everything will fit. Enlightenment will come, whether the enlightenment is spiritual, intellectual, scientific, or a mixture of all remains to be seen.
The biggest point I'm making in this argument is that EVERYTHING is theory and will be until the day in which it can be proven. It is personal belief that let us believe past that point, Atheism being one of those personal beliefs.
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Actually, my "opinion" on where religion comes from was not derived from conjecture--it comes from the studies of many anthropologists. I will reference you a book when I get home.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to think I'm attacking Christianity specifically, which isn't the case. I may disbelieve some religions more than others, but I disbelieve them all nonetheless. In fact, your statements on the subject are just a rewording of my own. I never said Christianity hadn't grown from other things; I said it had. I'm not trying to lessen Christianity based on the fact that it came after many other religions. I think the first ones were wrong too. The only true point I was trying to make in that paragraph is that morals were not borne of religion, as many people seem to believe. They were merely incorporated at one point. I was just attempting to share what I knew from my studies since you said you didn't know. If you don't think it's true, at least now you have a springboard for your own studies on the origins of religion.
Even if you disregard the origins of religion entirely, it doesn't change the fact that morals were not part of religion prior to the advent of Judaism, the concept of a single god who created the universe, and the concept of spiritual reward. Again, look to the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, or Sumerians. The theocracies of Sumer & Egypt held special places for sacrifice in an effort to control the favors of the gods--the others had gods who basically used humans as pawns, but were just as humanistic as we are; they just had special powers.
I'm not sure how to approach your statements on your personal faith being inside you. That could turn into another entry. Let's just say I don't see how it fits into the conversation.
I thought your primary issue with the original post was that the author was decrying the teaching of religion to children. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
I agree that everything is theory, but we sure all believe our theory is right. ;) Otherwise we wouldn't have them.
Woo! It fit without my having to create another blog!
ReplyDeletePS: If you'd just stick to Kris, you wouldn't keep misspelling my name. :(
ReplyDeleteDamn, I did it again. Sorry Kristin.
ReplyDeleteI have just as many "real" books on the subject of religion and where it comes from as you might. I don't know who is right and who is wrong so I didn't choose one over another. I know speculative theory on how religion came to be, but I don't because I wasn't there. Of course everything is speculation anyhow, so I could have given my opinion I suppose. One in a sea of many.
I did not say morals were born of religion, what I said was the Christianity religion certainly didn't hurt.
My original point was leave the kids out of it. The point I'm attempting to make in this point is to each their own. I certainly don't run around calling you an idiot or infantile for not believing. I don't feel I should take that type of abuse either.
Now, off to have a green beer =)
In your last paragraph, was that a "you" general, or "you" as in me? I neither said you were an idiot nor that you were infantile. Neither have I been verbally abusing you.
ReplyDeleteNo harm no foul on the origins of religion thing, but please be more clear about your position. You simply said you didn't know, so I tried to give you the benefit of my studies.
Still, I don't know any cultural anthropologists who might say gods walked the earth among humans, and if you do I'd like to read THAT book. There's a lot of ancient history no one took record of, but we still know a lot of things by studying remains that tell the story of ancient culture. I'll cite you the book anyway, and maybe sometime you'll get interested in taking a peek. Couldn't hurt. Feel free to cite anything back at me if you have an interesting reference that supports your case.
World Civilizations by Philip J. Adler and Randall L. Pouwells, Copyright 2008, published by Wadsworth. Check it out, if ever you're game. Interesting stuff.
You most certainly implied that morality came from religion in your original post:
"In a world where I had no belief in God, I'd shoot your stupid ass for the mere suggestion of telling me how to rear my children because I wouldn't be worried about going to hell; and before I even hear I'll be punished by law if I shoot you; think about where that law, and where the morality of shooting someone is bad came from. I bet it didn't come from the monkeys."
And lastly . . . green beer? Beer is bad enough by itself, do you have to make it an unappetizing color too? lol
You in general, more specifically the you's on Brandon's page =)
ReplyDelete